Star: Entered room.
Geerte1: Hi Star
Geerte1: ACTION yawns
Katnipp59: Hi ya'all!
Katnipp59: what are we talking about tonite?
Gwynyvyr: Entered room.
Gwynyvyr: Hello all
Geerte1: Hi Gwyn
Katnipp59: Hi Gwyn
Gwynyvyr: Just sneaking in while I am cooking dinner
Gwynyvyr: pork chops and tater tots
Gwynyvyr: ahhh, sin...one of my favorite subjects
Geerte1: I admit to having to check for that myself though. :-)
Star: Thanks, Geerte. I was about to go look. I should have remembered, but my brain's a little melty at the moment.
Geerte1: And that while I'm the one getting up at 2am for this! ;-)
eihdos: Entered room.
Star: Hey, it's been a long day. :)
Gwynyvyr: I am going to leave my computer on here and stay logged into chat, but I will be dashing around fixing dinner too
Geerte1: Hi Eihdos
Geerte1: staying up late as well? :-)
eihdos: Geerte, did you get home alright
eihdos: Staying up too late. :)
Geerte1: Yeah, all in one piece, and no traffic jams!
eihdos: Good to hear.
Starlyn1: Entered room.
Geerte1: I actually got up for this - wanted to make it here at least once. :-)
Starlyn1: Merry Meet all
Star: I wonder if Shadow's going to make it...
eihdos: It usually gets too crowded for me after a while. My modem can't cope...
eihdos: Star - is there still a power problem?
Geerte1: I was just going to ask if you knew that, Star
Star: eihdos, she was a little worried about being able to make it because for the past few days (since the outage) they've been asked to conserve power, which means not a lot of computer time.
eihdos: It's probably the most sensible thing to do, but I'll miss her if she doesn't show.
Star: And no, I don't know whether she'll be here... I'm assuming not at this point, since she's usually online by now if she's coming, IIRC.
Starlyn1: Left room.
Gwynyvyr: sooo, how do we start a discussion about sin?
Star: Well... I guess I could throw out a general question.
Gwynyvyr: go for it
Star: Do y'all believe there is such a thing as sin?
Star: (Though I have no idea whether this is now the chat was "supposed" to go, but what the hey.)
Katnipp59: I know the diference between right and wrong
Katnipp59: I don't need a list to tell me
eihdos: Sort of. Not in the Christian sense. Not doing "good" when it would be easy, or doing "evil" out of laziness.
Gwynyvyr: I think that sin can be defined as "a deliberate act to hurt an innocent"...at least thats what I think sin is
Star: Gwyn, can you expand on your answer a little too? What do you feel "sin" is?
Star: Does your definition match Katnipp's or eihdos', or do you think it's something else entirely?
Geerte1: So that means something can only be a sin if someone else is involved?
Gwynyvyr: Well, if you deliberately pollute (toxic waste dumps)
eihdos: Geerte - pretty much, yes.
Geerte1: Does this have to be a physical being, or could one sin against one's Gods as well?
Star: What makes toxic waste dumping a sin, though?
Geerte1: Or against other spirits?
Gwynyvyr: what about someone that deliberately sets a forest fire, for kicks, or for employment...
Star: Gwyn, but what makes those things sins and not just "bad" or "evil"?
Gwynyvyr: well, I guess the toxic waste has the potential to injure other people
Katnipp59: Those things are wrong but they would be that way no matter the culture
eihdos: Doesn't have to be a physical being. Though maybe the word *sin* isn't right.
Gwynyvyr: If they are done DELIBERATELY to injure I definitely feel they are 'sins'
Geerte1: Katnipp - would they?
Katnipp59: what about cannabalism?
Gwynyvyr: katnipp, depends on the culture and the circumstances
Geerte1: There are many cultures that set woods afire so they can then grow crops on the remaining field. Would that be a sin as well?
Katnipp59: That's right Gwyn
Gwynyvyr: Geerte, I was thinking more in line of recent events in the US
Katnipp59: So what is considered a sin in one is not in another
Katnipp59: I think there are universal wrongs
Star: I think I see where Gwyn's going with that... Intentional burn-clearing of a field would not have been done with intention to harm, rather the opposite actually, so it wouldn't be a sin... If I'm understanding her correctly.
Gwynyvyr: I think so too Katnipp
Geerte1: brb - need to get me a warmer sweater.
Star: Like what, Katnipp?
Gwynyvyr: yup Star
Katnipp59: murder shild abuse child molestation
Katnipp59: anything that would be adetriment to society as a whole
Gwynyvyr: I recently read a book called "Stiff" which is an investigation of what people do with human cadavers...I read some things in there that might have bearing on this discussion
eihdos: Kat - what if you murder a child molester?
Star: But how do you define murder and child abuse? And are you sure that something that would be a detriment to one society would be a detrement to another?
Katnipp59: I would also shoot a rabid dog
Star: (Child molestation I'm not really coming up with a good argument for, possibly because I don't really want to.)
Katnipp59: as far as I'm concerned there is no difference
Star: But if you kill a person, isn't it still murder, even if they're the equivalent of a rabid dog?
Gwynyvyr: Fla is the only state that can use the death penalty for child molesters
Star: (I think if you ask the law... it is.)
Katnipp59: According to the law it is but as far as my own consience no
Star: Why not?
Star: They're still a person, even if they've done a horrible thing, aren't they?
Katnipp59: Ive seen the outcome of the victums of child abuse
Gwynyvyr: I think, that by their own deliberate actions, some people have gone so far beyond the pale of human behavior for ANY culture that the death penalty as a collective punishement from the people is appropriate
Katnipp59: they are people too
Mariora: Entered room.
Geerte1: Hello Mariora
Mariora: cant stay long..just thought I'd pop in and check on the sin convo
Star: If they are people too, how isn't it murder to kill them?
Geerte1: Katnipp - you won' change those effects anymore by killing the abuser though.
Mariora: *waves back*
Katnipp59: It would seep it from happening again
eihdos: By the way - if the child molester was molested him/herself, would that change your opinion?
Geerte1: So would putting them in jail for life
Star: It would keep *that* *person* from ever doing it again. It wouldn't keep child molestation from happening ever again. It doesn't solve the problem.
Katnipp59: They never stay there for life
Katnipp59: Yes it might
Geerte1: Or if we could think of an effective therapy, that might change it, too.
Star: It might? How?
Katnipp59: I am a provider for the mentally handicapped
Mariora: there is such a thing as "life without the possiblity of parole"
Star: How does one death keep this thing from ever happening again?
Geerte1: Katnipp - there are possibilities to keep them there for life.
Katnipp59: one of the people I work for who is MR
Katnipp59: grew up in a household where mlestation was the norm
Katnipp59: from his uncle father and mother
Gwynyvyr: Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy...there are excellent examples of people that elected by their own actions to be given a death sentence. And remember...no jail/prison is escape proof. Bundy killed 3 more women that we know of after his escape in Colorado
Star: Katnipp, I feel a great deal of sympathy for this person, and I'm sorry that it happens... But all of this is not answering the original question. Why is it less of a sin to kill a molester than to kill any other human being?
Star: Not why is it less wrong--why is it less of a sin?
Katnipp59: he has an obsession with young boys tho he has never done anything
Katnipp59: because it's a question of right or wrong to the society as a whole to me not sin
Star: OK... Are there other criminals you would kill, then? Or just child molesters?
Geerte1: And to what extent do we, as humans, need to punish people for sinning?
eihdos: I don't see punishment as being necessary. Just keep them from repeating their crimes.
Geerte1: If there's Sin, there must be some kind of inherent punishment to that, whether it be from the Gods or through karma or whatever - so should we intervene?
Gwynyvyr: eihos...hundreds of studies all point to one thing...no serial child molestor has ever been sucessfully rehabilitated
Katnipp59: I don't believe any one person should be the sole judge of that
Star: I'd amend that, personally, Geerte--to *do* we as humans need to punish people for sinning. The word has religious connotations to me, which means it's for the gods to deal with. We must deal with what we need to deal with to keep our society running and healthy--but punish for sin? I don't know that we can.
Star: Or should.
Gwynyvyr: Geerte, would you intervene if your child was being injured? Of course!
Geerte1: Exactly, Star
Mariora: punish for wrongdoings...let the gods handle the sin.....
eihdos: No, but I don't think we should sentence serial killers to death. I think we should study them, and try to catch other serial killers in an earlier stage.
Katnipp59: But if someone takes something away like life or ireparably harms an inocent they should face more than alife sentance in prison
Gwynyvyr: so what is the difference between a crime/wrong-doing and a sin? Is there a difference?
Star: Do two wrongs make a right, then?
Katnipp59: which by the way is usually no longer than 10 or so years
Star: A life for a life?
Geerte1: Gwyn - yes, I certainly would. And I' try and keep them from doing it again. But if it is to be considered a *sin*, then I don' know whether it' my place to *punish* them for it. That is up to my Gods
Star: ACTION nods in agreement with Geert
Mariora: sin to me has religious connotations......
Katnipp59: yes mari me too
masterpally: Entered room.
masterpally: Left room.
Geerte1: Katnipp - around here, life is minimum of 20 years. In case of a severe crime, one will get life without parole, and never get out again.
masterpally: Entered room.
Mari: Entered room.
Gwynyvyr: lets get out of crime as a sin...what about your specific faith or path? Is blasphemy a sin? Disavowing your faith...what is a sin (religious-wise) in your faith?
Geerte1: Gwyn - Sin, to me, carries stronger religious connotations
Mari: forgot it was tuesday :-( :waves:
Geerte1: Hello Mari, Master Pally
masterpally: hello ladies and gents.....how is everything tonight ?
Geerte1: and carries punishments on a religious level, but not necessarily on a mundane level
Mariora: hey Mari
Geerte1: Gwyn - the Netjeru except a lot by way of worshipping other Gods
Gwynyvyr: If someone went into a temple/church/whatever of your faith and smashed altars or whatever...would that be a sin? Or would it only be a sin if someone who believed in that faith did it?
Geerte1: in the Kemetic pov, their sphere of influence is geographically limited, so that they would consider it normal to ask the local Gods for a favor if you'e abroad
Star: In my belief, sin is... I don't have an exact definition, or a good example. But it's something that is deeply wrong, and something that only the gods can deal with.
Gwynyvyr: oops...gotta get the tater tots out of the oven...BRB
Geerte1: However, one is expected to respect the Netjeru, and not doing so would be considered sin - or as close as the Kemetic religion gets to that
masterpally: in my faith we belive that any act short of moral perfection is sin.....kind of cut and dry
Geerte1: It' one of the things that come up in the Negative Confession, in which one is supposed to list all the bad things one did *not* do.
Geerte1: That' a very high demand to place on people, Pally
masterpally: but i guess if you realy looked at it it would apply to all faiths yes ?
Geerte1: I don' think so.
masterpally: i know its a high demand
Mari: Sin appy to all faiths?
Mari: or did I miss something?
Geerte1: I think that for most religions, there are different levels of wrongdoings
masterpally: thats why jesus died....cuse he knew we couldnt live to those standerds
Geerte1: And Mari has a point in saying that not all faiths include a concept of sin in the first place
masterpally: cant spell tonight lol
Katnipp59: I grew up in the Christan faith and it seems sin can be interpreted in so many different ways
Geerte1: Pally - Sin, to me, carries connotations of heavy punishment.
Gwynyvyr: what faiths do not have a concept of sin?
masterpally: your right, i missed a couple in my minds eye geerte
Mari: My faith doesn't have a concept of "sin".
Geerte1: Not honoring the sabbat once would be wrong - but would that be punished just as strongly as killing a man?
Mariora: i dont think mine has sin either....
eihdos: My faith doesn't. Some things are wrong, some things might be punished, but they're not sins, per se.
Mari: My faith teaches "amorality" basically
eihdos: Not honoring Hestia (by caring for your family and such) would be wrong, for instance.
masterpally: well the whole right and wrong is determined by your divine whatever...so its your god that writes the laws of right and wrong.
Katnipp59: I had one person who said he was christian say that stealing apack of bubble gum and murder was equal in God's eyes
Geerte1: The closest thing to sin Kemetism know is Isfet - actions that support chaos over order, Ma'at
masterpally: what you do right by your gods standards id cool...what you did wrong by them would count as sin yes ?
Star: Mine's got a concept of sin, but a very fuzzy one. It's kind of one of those things... You'll know it if you're about to do it, and it's between you and the gods pretty much.
Gwynyvyr: afk for a bit, gotta eat
eihdos: Geerte - could you tell me more about Isfet, or point me to some web site or book?
Geerte1: However, it is more or less expected that one does that occasionally.
masterpally: in christians we belive if we commited one sin we have commited all sins......the ten commandments steal and you have lied stole lusted for and so forth
Mari: I've never heard that interpretation before
Geerte1: Eihdos - I' need some more time for websites, so I'll have to get back to you for that.
masterpally: its not an interpretation....right outta the bible
masterpally: i read alot
eihdos: Whenever you can find the time. :)
Geerte1: Isfet is essentially anything that undermines the existing order
Geerte1: that can be lies, stealing, not respecting the Netjeru...
eihdos: But what's order? Things like the sun rising every day?
Mari: Erm. I grew up Baptist and have studied the Bible in-depth. Still, that's a different way of looking at it, I suppose. Just never heard of it before.
masterpally: what if isfet is the exsisting order ?
Geerte1: Isfet is everywhere, and inherent in life
Geerte1: Isfet per definition isn', Pally
Geerte1: The order the Gods installed in Ma
masterpally: thats why christians debate....to get a better grasp on the book
Geerte1: ...is ma'at
Geerte1: Truth, Justice
Katnipp59: But Pally this person also argued that it was the same punishment for both
eihdos: Who argued that is was the same punishment for what? I'm lost.
Geerte1: The sun rising every day is part of this order as well
eihdos: I think I get it. A little. :)
Katnipp59: a frien of mine who is Christian
masterpally: yup...for the wages of sin is death........he didnt pick out certain ones
Geerte1: Isfet is symbolized mainly by Apophis, the greaty snake who tries to eat the sun during its path through the Otherlands
Katnipp59: I am not trying to argue or disrespect your beliefs
masterpally: im kindda wrapped up in the tebetian book of the living and dying right now.....deep stuff in this book wow
masterpally: no offense taken my friend
Geerte1: It is killed every night by the Gods (so far!) but every actian that supports Isfet over Ma'at gives Apophis strength over the Netjeru
Mariora: brb......have to send an email
Katnipp59: but if I steal a piece of gum and someone else murders a room full of children we will both be punished the same way?
Mari: That doesn't seem right to me. Whatever happened to an eye for an eye?
Geerte1: Which means that as well as a punishable offence in the Hall of Two Truths, where one's heart gets weighed and one gets judged
Geerte1: it is simply very dangerous to live a life of Isfet
masterpally: see god has this moral perfection thing going...sin cannot exsist in his presence....so to have all his children with him he sent jesus to die
eihdos: Does the Kemetic faith have something like armageddon or ragnar.k?
masterpally: so in taking the gift of the sacrafice which is jesus we become sin free in gods eyes and can enter into heaven and skip the punishment for sin
Geerte1: They do have some concept of Ma'at ending some day - as even the Netjeru are not immortal in Kemetic thought
Geerte1: I can't tell you much about that though - haven' gotten my hands on any texts about that yet.
masterpally: geerte this sounds familiar of which your talking about .....i just cant figure out where iv heard of it
eihdos: I'll just have to pester my librarians again. ;)
Mariora: hmm....the cup on my desk is wobbling...all by itself
Geerte1: Eihdos - look for Assman, Hornung
Star: I know where I've heard about the weighing of the soul... Though it's not something I'd cite as a scholarly source. :)
masterpally: Left room.
Geerte1: George Hart
Geerte1: It' a concept that comes up a lot when reading about Egypt
Gwynyvyr: is back
Geerte1: It' a very striking imagery
Star: It was used in a Sesame Street movie. :) Don't remember which one though. That's where I'd heard about it... Had no idea until just now that it was actually a real Kemetic concept.
Katnipp59: I've heard of it too not sure where
Geerte1: It is. After death, one goes to the West or Duat and enters the Hall of Two Truths
eihdos: Geerte - have you read Ancient Evenings by Norman Mailer?
Gwynyvyr: I just read about a doctor that weighed dying people (I mean on the very edge of death) so that he could determine the weight of the soul
Geerte1: One has to read the negative confession, saying that one has not done Isfet, has not done x kinds of wrong, has respected the Gods, etc
Geerte1: Eihdos - no, I haven'.
Geerte1: After that, one' heart is weighed against Ma'at (the Goddess who personifies the concept) or her feather.
eihdos: Lots of Egyptian mythology in it, very good book. Don't know if it's accurate, though.
Geerte1: If one' heart is too heavy, one' soul gets eaten and destroyed
eihdos: Gwynvyr - 200 grams, right? ;)
Geerte1: If it is light enough, one can enter that Afterlife, where one can then live on more or less as on Earth
Gwynyvyr: uhmmm lemme grab the book
Geerte1: I think there might well have been some concept of reincarnation there as well
Geerte1: But it's not made explicit
Star: Huh. Whoda thunk that Sesame Street would have gotten Egyptian mythology right?...
Geerte1: Actually, I'm not even all that surprised
Geerte1: I wouldn't start quoting it as a source, but I can see where they would want to teach kids something on the side
eihdos: Mailer has one of the characters die while he's making love, at the moment of conception. His soul enters the womb of the woman and he is reborn. Very nifty. ;)
Star: Well, yeah, I'm not suggesting quoting it as a source either. I just thought it was cool that they more or less got it right. :)
Gwynyvyr: eihos...3/4 of an ounce it says here
eihdos: That's more like twenty grams than twohundred. Um... :)
eihdos: So, did he have people dying on scales?
Gwynyvyr: yes, he did
Katnipp59: was wonering about that :)
Gwynyvyr: Dr Duncan Macdougall of Haverhill, Mass in 1907
eihdos: Couldn't it have been air?
Gwynyvyr: published in the April 1907 issue of American Medicene
Gwynyvyr: He was very thourough...measured their sweat, etc
Gwynyvyr: get the book Stiff by Mary Roach...tells all sorts of nifty (and gross ) stories about what is done with cadavers
eihdos: Besides dog food?
Gwynyvyr: they use cadavers for crash test dummies
Mariora: whoa.that was weird.....
Gwynyvyr: and fertilizer
Mariora: the room was blank
Katnipp59: At UT hospital in Knoxville they have an area where they study how bodies decompose they are just laying around on the ground
Gwynyvyr: aborted fetuses are used as medicene in China...used to be sold to resteraunts until some reporters got wind of it
Mariora: the body farm....thats a neat place
Katnipp59: yep mariora
Gwynyvyr: Katnipp...the body farm in Tennesee is where I want my remains to go
eihdos: But that wouldn't give you much valid information about what happens to a living person, though.
eihdos: Sounds like a very entertaining book, anyway.
Gwynyvyr: eihos, the Body Farms main purpose is to aid law enforcement in estemating time of death, etc
Gwynyvyr: Its a great book
Gwynyvyr: has some really funny stuff in it too
eihdos: No, I meant the crash test dummies.
Katnipp59: I really don't care how my remains are disposed of if science can use them it's fine by me
Mariora: ok.....i cant keep up....gotta go
Mariora: Left room.
Mari: My dad says he wants to leave his body to science fiction. :D
Gwynyvyr: so, the soul weighs in at a whopping 3/4 of an ounce...according to Dr Macdougall...lets bring sin and souls together here...can someones soul be "black", is selling your soul a sin (even if you REALLY need the money)?
Mari: how on earth cna you weigh a soul??
eihdos: And more importantly, can you sell it on eBay?
Katnipp59: how can something like that be sold?
Katnipp59: ebay oh allright that might work
Geerte1: One can sell ANYTHING on ebay
Geerte1: One can sell reincarnation on ebay
Gwynyvyr: Dr Macdougall devised specialized beds upon which dying patients were placed. The heart beats were listened to and approx 2 to 4 minutes after the heart stopped beating, the scale needle would jump back that 3/4 of an ounce
Gwynyvyr: yup katnipp
Mari: reincarnation on ebay LOL
eihdos: So selling your soul would be a great way to lose weight?
Mari: that's interesting
Gwynyvyr: some 18 yr old guy sold his virginity on ebay, got around 300 for it , I think
Katnipp59: hav'nt tried that yet lol
44224Grad: Entered room.
Gwynyvyr: and, of course, got laid
Katnipp59: the soul thing I mean *g*
eihdos: Anyway, anyhow, 2 to 4 minutes after the heart has stopped the lungs collapse and the air is expired - two to three litres, with condensation. Which you may well find accounts for the twenty grams.
Star: I'm looking around on eBay... I don't see a soul yet but that doesn't mean it's not there. :D
Gwynyvyr: I wonder if any modern day doctor has tried to duplicate Dr Macdougalls findings?
eihdos: Star - you can have mine for free!
Geerte1: eihdos - don' think those 3/4 ounces pay off
Gwynyvyr: eihdos, he took the expiration of air into account in his measurements
eihdos: And if you wait for 2 to 4 days, you may find that the scale has hopped back a couple of pounds. ;)
Gwynyvyr: and condensation
Star: Oh, I don't WANT it, I just want to see if anyone's trying to sell their souls. :)
eihdos: That's interesting.
Gwynyvyr: go to local library...get the book
eihdos: My local library doesn't carry a whole lot of books in English, but I might buy it.
Gwynyvyr: The soul stuff is in the chapter "How To Know When Your'e Dead"
Katnipp59: If you find one Star let me know I want to see the description
Mari: am going to run folks. i'm hving troulble keeping up! have a good one!!! WSSL!
Mari: Left room.
Gwynyvyr: sorry, make that How To Know IF Your'e Dead
Katnipp59: I think I'll be able to figure THAT out Lol
eihdos: "How to know if you're dead" - makes bathroom scales rather scary, all of a sudden...
Katnipp59: brb hubby on phone
Geerte1: Question: how does one get oneself to a scale if one' dead? :-)
Star: I don't think there's actually a soul available on eBay.
Geerte1: You can get reincarnation instead, Star. :-)
eihdos: If one is dead, that chapter might be superfluous. ;)
Gwynyvyr: The way I see it, being dead is not terribly far off from being on a cruise ship. The brain has shut down. Most of your time is spent lying on your back.The flesh begins to soften.Nothing much new happens, and nothing much is expected of you.
Gwynyvyr: Thats the first lines from the book, LOL
eihdos: Geerte - you could sit on the scale and weight for death?
Gwynyvyr: I gotta go...hubby is whining...
Gwynyvyr: Left room.
Katnipp59: ooohhh eidos nooooo!
Geerte1: Eihdos - that' a teriible, TERRIBLE pun there....
eihdos: Sorry. Pun-ishment is in order. :)
Geerte1: I think you need to go to bed.
Geerte1: ACTION hits Eihdos with a big dead fish
eihdos: So does my boyfriend.
Geerte1: Smart guy!
Geerte1: You might want to shower to get rid of that fishy smell first though...
eihdos: That a Dutch tradition? :)
Geerte1: Hitting people with fish?
44224Grad: that fishy smell came from her
Geerte1: No, that's just a sign I spent too much time in chat with Shadow
Star: Or her evil twin.
eihdos: That fishy smell came from who?
Star: ACTION runs away fast
Geerte1: ACTION chases Star with a salmon
eihdos: Fish fight!
Katnipp59: fish fish heads rolly poly fish heads
44224Grad: blind man said excuse me madam
Geerte1: And I spent too much time with Shad' evil twin or I *am* her evil twin?
eihdos: [threatens geerte with a pike]
Geerte1: ACTION hits the pike out of eihdos' hands
eihdos: [goes looking for a swordfish]
Geerte1: However, it's bedtime for me.
Star: No kidding... Must be nearly 4am there?
Geerte1: I need to be coherent tomorrow
Star: Sweet dreams!
Geerte1: 3.24 :-)
Katnipp59: nite Geerte
eihdos: Half past three. Night everybody!
Geerte1: Left room.
Star: Well, OK, so I can't seem to read *my* clock...
Katnipp59: nite eidos
eihdos: Left room.
44224Grad: Left room.
Katnipp59: I guess it's nite nite for me too
Star: Okies. Have a good night!
Katnipp59: Left room.
Star: Left room.
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