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| Home > Chat Logs > The Afterlife and You (10 Jun 2003) | Search |
| Chat Log: The Afterlife and You |
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Shadow: So, what does your faith/you expect once we die and pass beyond? Is it the same for everyone? Chosen/unchosen?
Shadow: Is there even an afterlife, or do we simply become wormfood?
empire10001: Hmm ... for me, reincarnation has the most evidentiary backing, so that's the one I incline to. Darned if I know, on the next two questions.
Shadow: What do you consider the "evidentiary backing" of reincarnation?
empire10001: If there isn't, I'm not gonna worry about it! Wormfood at least has the benefit of =not= having to worry!
Shadow: *giggle* it does have a certain finality about it, yes
empire10001: A large number of stories (anecdotal, granted), mostly from India, where children remember past lives they couldn't possibly have heard about, and show familiarity when introduced to people and places from their past lives.
Shadow: do you think everyone is reincarnated, or only some?
Shadow: AND .. if we do reincarnate, why?
empire10001: This of course is not conclusive, since it could be postcognition, telepathy, clairvoyance, or whatever.
Shadow: Personally, I think our souls do come back, but not as one unified piece .. or at LEAST, not NECESSARILY as one unified piece
Shadow: but instead can break into little bits, each bit going into different new souls
Celeste621: Entered room.
Shadow: hey!
Celeste621: hi, sorry i'm late
Shadow: current topic: what happens post-death
empire10001: IMO, most are reincarnated, but the reasons vary. Some to learn new lessons, some to continue a mission, some to have a "vacation life" =from= a mission.
empire10001: Hi, Celeste!
Celeste621: hi, empire
Shadow: what would these missions be?
Shadow: AND .. what happens when you complete them?
Celeste621: oooh, i could go for a vacation life. sounds nice.
Shadow: dunno .. think I'd be bored. unless I was a cat or something.
empire10001: Damfino ... though from what I think I remember from some of my past lives, I'm on one of the "vacation lives" from doing major work helping large numbers of people, not just one-on-one.
Celeste621: hm, i never considered that possibility, empire
empire10001: Vacation life doesn't mean free from care, just free from the main work you've been doing. Kinda like going on vacation IRL.
Celeste621: about having some lives easier for the purpose of rest, that is.
Shadow: well, I guess one question is .. if we've got missions, why do so many people seem to be doing *nothing*
Shadow: and why don't we REMEMBER these missions, either?
empire10001: I think an old friend gave me that idea, and it fits for me. Goes along with a phrase I got from "somewhere" many years ago -- "cherish the freedom of obscurity".
Shadow: seems silly to give a person a mission and not tell them what it is
Celeste621: the theory i've heard often enough is that we don't learn as well if we remember, something like that. i don't think that it holds much water put that way though.
Celeste621: like, we can't preform our tasks well enough if we're bogged down by preconcieved ideas, lables for ourselves, biases, whatever we retained before.
Shadow: dunno. part of why I like my soul-bits theory .. everyone still comes back, and there can still be memories attached .. but we're doing something new, and a new person, every time
empire10001: That I can't answer, Shadow, except that if you're on a "vacation life" you've probably chosen not to remember. Or you only remember bits and pieces.
Shadow: I don't know .. I think we'd learn a lot more about tolerance if we remembered being *other*!
Celeste621: that i can subscribe to, Shadow. If part of our mission is learning, then we need to start fresh each time, unload some of that baggage at checkpoints maybe.
Celeste621: Sort of like what I seem to do between new semesters at school. unload everything i've learned and start fresh.
Shadow: somehow, I don't think you're supposed to forget EVERYTHING there .....
empire10001: I don't like your "soul-bits" theory for purely personal reasons ... if a personality survives death intact, or is totally dissipated, I can handle it. But the idea of being broken into small bits and redistributed at random seems pointless, as well as giving me a serious case of the creeps.
Celeste621: ^^
Shadow: ah .. see, to me it's more a case of re-absorbtion, then sent back out .. re-absorbed wholey into the Divine, which then creates a new soul .. which is part of all that has been absorbed before
empire10001: Hmm ... that, to me, would be as pointless as the "one life is it, then you're done" schools.
Shadow: pointless to the individual, maybe, but not to the Divine, which seeks to learn and experience
Shadow: now, it's NICER to experience the good, and not the bad .. so people should DO good and not bad. But I don't really believe in rewards/punishments.
empire10001: True, but not being divine, I'm limited to human points of view. And to me, if I'm not going to remain an individual, it's academic what the alternative is.
Shadow: brb, gotta clear the line for a sec.
Captain_Koi_-_Arrr_: Entered room.
empire10001: Heya, Koi!
Koi: hey guys
Koi: sorry I'm late ... dinner took longer than expected.
Koi: that's what happens when I cook!
empire10001: Shadow will be back soon -- she had to clear the line briefly.
Shadow: Left room.
Koi: k
Koi: doh doh doh
Koi: very quiet in here
empire10001: Just from curiosity, Koi, do Catholics have any acceptance of reincarnation? My studies didn't go that deep, I'm afraid.
Koi: no, not really
Koi: although my great-grandma told everyone who would listen, including the bishop, that she intended to be reincarnated as a male cardinal
empire10001: That was the impression I got. -- ROFL! I could like your great-grandma!
Koi: she had her opinions
Koi: we have lots or red cardinals around our house
Koi: lots of
empire10001: *MS* Matter of fact, I had a very unforgettable impression of a past life as a Vatican cardinal, in a walled, very private Roman garden ... and I don't even know if such ever existed back in the (Middle ages?)
empire10001: We have a couple, but only in winter. Darn it!
Koi: if which existed in the middle ages?
empire10001: Walled gardens -- sorry! This one had trees, flowers, and I believe a pond with a fountain.
Koi: i'm pretty sure they had walled gardens
Koi: oh, shadow's on her way back in
Shadow: Entered room.
empire10001: Re, Shadow!
Shadow: back!
Shadow: where are we?
Koi: cardinals :)
Koi: the birdy kind
Lisa: Entered room.
Shadow: er .. do they have afterlives? ;)
Koi: hey lisa!
Shadow: Lisa!
Lisa: Hey Koi :)
Koi: no, my great-grandma intended to be reincarnated as one
Lisa: Hey Shadey
Shadow: ah! any idea if it worked?
Koi: she thought the lady cardinals were too drab
Koi: dunno :)
empire10001: We wuz talking reincarnation, and I thought that way back along, I was a cardinal (Catholic type), and ...
Koi: but we have lots around the house ... outside, and in our decor
empire10001: Hi, Lisa!
Shadow: the only *memories* I have don't quite fit together .. flashes of things that could be ANYthing. So I don't worry about it too much!
Lisa: Hi Empire
empire10001: Bird cardinals are pretty. Catholic ones ... um, distinguished-looking, some of 'em. {G}
Shadow: although I think I would HATE *being me* for eternity, wherever that was. Change is necessary .. even when it sucks
Shadow: what about the Pagan ones? *Hummingbird Cardinal to Pope Seasons*
Koi: older men look nice in dresses
Koi: hides the bulk
empire10001: Hey, I'm Cardinal #15 to Pope Peep my own self! {G}
Lisa: ACTION snickers
empire10001: Times I wouldn't mind a burka ... when I'm feeling especially ugly, at least.
Shadow: what would be the WORST afterlife you could imagine? what would you *fear* happening?
Lisa: Sorry was wondering if Kilts qualified as dresses
Koi: hm ... that's disturbing. they've changed the little girl cheerleader outfit to the new "sexy" kind instead of the cute pleated skirt
Koi: well, the thing about kilts is there's still a waistband
Koi: and waistbands on portly men make it clear that the waist has wandered off
Shadow: I think my worst fear would be finding out the fundies were right .. and I somehow ended up in *Heaven* with them anyway. eeew .. eternity with self-righteous people!
empire10001: Very true! {G}
Celeste621: the worst afterlife...I'd say if the fundies were right
Celeste621: oops, sorry
Shadow: *g* can't blame you for thinking the same! :)
Celeste621: i was thinking more along the lines of getting sent to hell though
empire10001: I'd hate to think the fundies were right ... though Hell might be kinda fun, come to think of it.
Koi: shadow, that's what they did to saddam on southpark. sent him to heaven with the mormons
Koi: yeah, only it wouldn't be, lol
Lisa: My worst fear? Being stuck with Strom Thurmond for all of eternity
empire10001: Hey, if all the fun people go to Hell, I'd rather be there than a Fundie Heaven!
Shadow: oh my. that's frightening
Celeste621: i've always said, yes, i'm going to hell. i'm driving the bus and i'm organizing the annual weenie roast there. i'm a very punctual bus driver so be on time if you're coming with me. that's usually my response to those threats of hell.
Celeste621: very true, empire, lol
Shadow: *giggle* I bet that shuts people up!
Shadow: although what gets me is when the JWs go around asking if you'd like to be immortal .. dear gods, I'd HATE being immortal!
Celeste621: it's usually good for that, yup
Celeste621: hm, boring
Koi: but it's not like you could PLAY with the fun people in hell
Shadow: not that I look forward to death, or anything, but I DO respect it as a necessary part of life!
Shadow: besides, what would one eat, if nothing died? and what's life without food?
Koi: you'd be sitting there by yourself experiencing eternal self-loathing
Koi: i think it would be pretty dull
Lisa: Death is not gvien much respect for its Station on the Wheel of Experience
Celeste621: i think i'd bring a good book with me, a big one to entertain me in hell.
Shadow: I'd plan on napping. I've done the self-loathing thing, I'm done with it. don't wanna do it no more!
Celeste621: well, at any rate, if i go to hell, then i go i guess. always a possibility even if i don't believe it now.
Lisa: The Never Ending Story???
Shadow: besides, what's the point?
Koi: i don't think you get the option of either books or naps :)
Shadow: it scares me sometimes, the lengths people go to avoid the thought, the reality, of death.
Celeste621: maybe the devils will talk to me
Shadow: um .. then I don't wanna go to that hell, thanks anyway. next option!
Celeste621: i think it would be interesting to converse with satan's minions
Koi: only if you go to cartoon hell :)
Celeste621: heh, true
Koi: BUT if you go to adventist hell, you get to burn up
Koi: they split with the baptists over that
Celeste621: hm
Shadow: if I go to any hell, I want it to be cartoon hell. anything else sucks
Shadow: they split over whether or not one roasted in Hell? WHAT?
Carolg3477_2: heh
Celeste621: what type of hell are most pagans who've rejected Christianity for other gods sent to, Koi?
Celeste621: theoretically speaking
Koi: there's just the one hell
Koi: basically, you are given full knowledge of the reality of God and suffer eternally because of your lack of God
Shadow: don't wanna do it! wouldn't be prudent! at this juncture!
Lisa: ACTION doesn't believe in hell and never has...
Lisa: Unless....
Lisa: Hell is on here on earth
Koi: like sorta as if someone pulled your still-beating heart out of your chest, except they pulled the still-beating God out of you
Shadow: I believe in hell on earth, that some people create for themselves.
Carolg3477_2: Can we get together and have lack of god parties?
Koi: so you sit there and feel pain for not having God, and loathe yourself for rejecting God
Shadow: but I don't believe that people are forever punished for something
Shadow: but I've got LOTS of Gods, Carol!
Carolg3477_2: Heh
Koi: however, Catholics - at least - aren't real clear that anyone's in hell
Shadow: I can share!
Celeste621: Ahhh, I would think that being that seperated from the divine in our soul would be a terrible thing.
empire10001: Well, since I can't accept the Christian version of Hell as being consonant with either a merciful or just all-powerful deity, I guess I'm SOL. {G}
Celeste621: No?
Koi: nope
Shadow: oddly enough, I once felt that separation .. in a church
Koi: it's unclear
empire10001: How so, Koi?
Shadow: it was VERY weird. needless to say, I avoided that building!
Koi: Catholic belief suggests that the most PROBABLE thing is that you get full knowledge of God at death
Koi: and get that last second to accept or reject
Koi: one would expect everyone to accept, of course
Celeste621: I like that, folks who can admit that they don't know for sure. :)
Celeste621: of course
Koi: which shuttles pretty much everyone but Mother Theresa into Purgatory
Shadow: well, it would be an awfully odd person to go "hey, that's reality .. screw it!"
empire10001: If I got full =knowledge=, honesty would compel me to accept.
Koi: where you suffer for a time - with your full knowledge of God but separated from God - until you have "burned off" your sins through suffering
Shadow: although I can see me telling God off. Respectfully, though. more or less.
Koi: and then you get to zip up to heaven
Carolg3477_2: that hardly seems fair
Shadow: but if certain things that *I* believe are necessary aren't true .. well ...
Koi: it's self-inflicted suffering, though ... you feel so gosh-darn rotten about all the bad stuff you did that you are self-separated from God
Carolg3477_2: heh
Koi: until you know enough of God's love that you realize you are forgiven
Celeste621: Ugh, I hate that kind of rotten feeling
Carolg3477_2: That sounds terrible
Lisa: so... what your saying is ... a narcissist would go straight to heaven ??
Koi: and Purgatory isn't "timed" even though we talk about it that way
empire10001: Well, yes, Shadow. 'Cause what we get here and now is neither convincing nor particularly attractive, IMO.
Koi: well, no, because in his moment of knowing everything he'd know all the bad stuff he did
Lisa: since they would automatically know that god forgave them after all they are so great...
Shadow: and I'm so far from subtle .. I'd probably tell God off, THEN realize that was cosmically stupid
Carolg3477_2: it's impossible to be perfect though..
Koi: no, they'd recognize their own inadequacies
Celeste621: lol Shadow
Carolg3477_2: to be punished for that..
Carolg3477_2: hrm
Celeste621: I'd hope that we'd all have some good sense at that point
Koi: right, that's why Catholics basically think we all go to purgatory
Koi: but you're not PUNISHED ... you're punishing yourself by *hiding* from God
Koi: until you realize God doesn't want you perfect
Shadow: see, I believe somethign similar .. but it's *here*, not after death
Carolg3477_2: I don't wanna punish myself..
Carolg3477_2: so I'll skip it thanks
Carolg3477_2: ;)
Koi: except maybe some saints
Shadow: after death, I don't think one can HAVE those kinds of illusions .. we simply go back to being One with the Divine
Koi: anyway, some catholics believe in the immediate sort - heaven, hell, purgatory
Shadow: we deal with all that mess HERE instead.
Carolg3477_2: I have no clue what happens after death
Koi: and others believe in the "everyone to purgatory for a while"
Carolg3477_2: except for the rotting and such
Celeste621: You know, I don't remember ever learning much about hell in my church. It's a shame, I think it would have made for interesting study when I was part of the bible study groups. Interesting to look into, at least.
Koi: that's 'cause there's not a whole lot about hell in the bible
Carolg3477_2: it's odd that that's what we hear about so much
Carolg3477_2: especially on certain cable channels
Carolg3477_2: ACTION shivers
Carolg3477_2: they have flow charts and pictures and everything
Shadow: flow charts of HELL????
Shadow: dude, remind me to not watch those channels. WEIRD!
Celeste621: hm
Carolg3477_2: the one I remember was one of the appocolypse
Shadow: I firmly believe all punishment that happens, and all rewards that happen, happen here. and BECAUSE they're here, they're inherently unfair, too
Koi: what I learned on cable is that catholics are going to hell because they eat fried chicken and get drunk in church
Koi: and I thought ... man ... I am at the WRONG church
Carolg3477_2: Heh!
Carolg3477_2: chicken friend communion?
Shadow: *giggle* pass the chicken!
Carolg3477_2: er fried
Lisa: all I know is that when the 'rapture' comes I'm gonna find a nice Lexus to drive.
Koi: 'cause I LIKE fried chicken!
empire10001: Hmm ... Koi, if God doesn't expect perfection, and people realize they =can't= be perfect, but do the best they can, then what happens to 'em? Still Purgatory?
Celeste621: gah, time flies. this has been really interesting guys, thanks. I can't wait to catch up with the transcripts. Have a good night, everyone.
Carolg3477_2: bye bye
Celeste621: Left room.
Koi: still purgatory because they realize god is perfect and have an inferiority complex about it :)
Koi: there's a medieval mystic who writes a lot about it ... i'm trying to think of who
Koi: she ate slugs
Carolg3477_2: Heh!
Carolg3477_2: What a way to be remembered
Shadow: oy. remind me to not be her.
empire10001: EWWW! But if you remember, please post? Her writing should be interesting.
Lisa: Hildegard of Bingen?
Carolg3477_2: is this eating slugs like the french eat snails, or eating slugs like the garden slimes?
Carolg3477_2: the difference probably being the sauce
Koi: no, not hildegard
Koi: slugs from someone's wound
Koi: i was so grossed out i could barely read
Koi: that's why I remember :)
Carolg3477_2: ...oh ew
dancinrain: Entered room.
Carolg3477_2: Was she starving to death?
empire10001: Ick! Sounds more like maggots. Blech!
Shadow: hello
dancinrain: Merry Meet everyone
Shadow: topic: various discussions on afterlives, and what we expect to find
Koi: i don't really remember
Koi: i just remember the maggots
Carolg3477_2: ich..
Carolg3477_2: ickick
dancinrain: Yuck maggots!
Shadow: anyway, so afterlives that are maggot-free .......
Koi: lol
Lisa: and on THAT delicious note
Lisa: I'm gonna do a carson....
dancinrain: LOL yeah I expect to come back again
Shadow: If we could design our own perfect universe, and declare what the afterlife SHOULD be, what would we pick?
Lisa: I'm ouuuutaaaaa heeeeerrrrrrreeeee
Shadow: byes, Lisa!
Lisa: Left room.
Carolg3477_2: woa
Carolg3477_2: I dunno..
dancinrain: I think well trees and water
Carolg3477_2: maybe some nice heaven like resting place, and reincarnation by choice?
dancinrain: animals
Carolg3477_2: trees are a must
dancinrain: reincarnation by choice is good
Koi: i'd do heaven. but there'd have to be singing
Shadow: I was thinking more, reincarnation, heaven/hell, wormfood .. what *should* exist?
empire10001: Hmm ... I'd say the Beautiful Country I was in for a bit, then reincarnation if you feel the need.
Shadow: er .. do dead people get to learn HOW to sing, then? 'cause otherwise, that's hell
Carolg3477_2: Heh!
dancinrain: hmmmm
Shadow: I do NOT want to spend an eternity with my dad pretending to be musical
empire10001: Koi, you do NOT want me singing!
dancinrain: LOL
dancinrain: Yuck
dancinrain: a musical with my father wow nightmare
Shadow: I think some form of rejoining the Divine .. maybe not getting EVERY question answered (that would take too long!) but some kind of understanding
empire10001: I'm not tone-deaf ... but I cannot carry a tune, and my singing hurts =my= ears!
dancinrain: LOL
dancinrain: Not a singer either
Shadow: I can sing ALONG with other people, at least. but I know too many people that just CAN'T!
dancinrain: I love to sing just can`t carry a tune
dancinrain: Ah well
dancinrain: This is cool my high preistess sent me this connection there are a bunch of other chat rooms and all pagn!!!
empire10001: I still like reincarnation, with a rest period between lives. Everything else is "You get one chance to get it right, and if you accidentally get something wrong, you're *blanked* forever."
Shadow: is there anything people would make certain didn't exist?
Shadow: everything, Ann?
dancinrain: so I am gonna go for a minute and check things out
dancinrain: Left room.
Shadow: 'kay
empire10001: Everything I've seen ... should've qualified that.
Koi: make certain didn't exist?
Carolg3477_2: misquitoes
Shadow: Hell, reincarnation, coming back *as* .. is there any form of afterlife we think shouldn't exist?
Carolg3477_2: Well.. there's the question of people like hitler..
Sperran: Entered room.
Shadow: hey, wb
Sperran: hi
empire10001: Heya, Sperran!
Sperran: Storms have abated for the moment.
Sperran: wow, lively discussion. :)
Carolg3477_2: hehe
Koi: yeah! no storms
Shadow: drat. I had a different question, and forgot it
Koi: i don't like ... um ... caste-based reincarnation
empire10001: Any form that grabs you after you're dead and says "You guessed wrong and you're going to suffer forever because of it". Any version that gives you another chance is fine by me.
Carolg3477_2: ACTION reincarnates as a spoiled house cat..
Carolg3477_2: talk about heaven
empire10001: I'd reincarnate as one of my husband's dogs! Spoiled brats.
Carolg3477_2: hrm.. but then I'd have to be spayed
Koi: man, i'd love to be one of my cats!
Koi: they are SO SPOILED
Koi: and SO LUCKY
Carolg3477_2: hehe
Shadow: *giggle* and you're SO MODEST about it!
Sperran: well, there's that whole one eye thing though...
Koi: we were watching animal planet and these people adopted a 3-legged dog
Koi: and my husband was like "Gosh, I don't know what kind of people are able to adopt an animal in that much trouble and love it ..."
Koi: I was like, "Sweetie, we ARE those people!"
Shadow: he's .. um .. not very observant, is he?
Koi: (with our two one-eyed cats both saved from varying deaths)
Koi: and with behavior problems
empire10001: And we, with a dog we nursed through a stroke earlier this year ...
Koi: so I'd like to be my cats except for the near death experiences
Koi: i just thought it was funny. he couldn't imagine who would possibly take on disabled animals who had been abused or abandoned
Koi: i was like, "have you met you?"
empire10001: LOL! He sounds so much like Ron!
Shadow: he doesn't talk to himself enough? ;)
Koi: lol
Koi: i guess it just doesn't seem like such a big deal when you're doing it
Koi: it's just one animal, one loveable animal
Koi: (although there were moments when we just wanted to KILL Jack!)
Koi: when we go to the vet, they praise us for adopting "special needs" animals and I just don't think of them that way. they're just my cats
empire10001: Folks, I'm going to have to head out ... I'm beat from a sun overdose today, and I have to get up early tomorrow. Take care!
Shadow: honestly, I think more people should be like that .. it says something, to be able to easily love, even the imperfect
Shadow: take care!
Koi: then they tell us about the lady teaching the deaf dog sign language and I'm like "WOW ..."
Koi: night ann!
Sperran: Bye Ann
Koi: wear sunscreen!
empire10001: Rest well, all! -- OK, I'll get some. :)
Koi: ACK!
Carolg3477_2: good night all
Koi: you don't HAVE some???????
empire10001: Left room.
Carolg3477_2: Left room.
Shadow: g'bye, Carol!
Koi: talk about hastening the afterlife :)
Shadow: bah, missed
Shadow: I *think* she was joking, Koi
Koi: i hope so
Shadow: so, are there any *crimes* that deserve punishment after death by a merciful loving God, do you think?
Shadow: or are all such punishments self-inflicted, when we catch on to our human idiocies?
Koi: depends on what you mean by punishement
Koi: i don't object to a temporary punishment but I don't feel good about a permanent one
Shadow: I don't like the idea of afterlife punishment, exactly .. something about it just seems .. wrong.
Shadow: I think once we see clearly, we don't NEED to be punished .. of course, that depends on what one means by "seeing clearly" I'd suspect!
Koi: (pondering vanity plates)
Shadow: yes, that's a crime that deserves eternal punishment. ;)
Shadow: ACTION ducks and runs
Koi: heh
Koi: I can get EIGHT letters down here!